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Malcolm Ocean's avatar

I like the thesis statement—good way to pitch EToC.

But I want to unpack exactly what we mean here... so, thinking out loud:

My assumption, prior to reading this, was that there isn't per se a first meme since memes in general emerged from imitative behavior as seen among chimps, who get inspired by each other to copy affordances, but don't do something resembling deliberately faithful transmission (referencing David Deutsch here slightly). And it seems like that *must* still be true insofar as pre-sapiens hominids had memes around how to manage fire for >200k years. And they would have had words (at least names for things and actions, if not also primitive grammar) for a long time as well. (As Genesis says, first man gave name to all the animals, *then* the whole snake fruit thing happened.)

But I think you know all this. So I think something's just getting a bit lost in translation. But if I return to the "Memetic Eve" imagery (which I like) then I note: ah, it's not that there weren't women before Mitochondrial Eve, and it's not that their lines all died out, it's just that *by now* we all have her as ancestor. So likewise it's not that there weren't other memes that are earlier, but that in a sense our current memetic operating system is all in some sense based on some kernel established 10k years ago (although changed substantially since then—perhaps beyond recognition, in the sense that they wouldn't recognize our version of the meme as the same, or we wouldn't recognize theirs).

Unlike animals, who have exactly 1-2 parents, and where there's a definitive answer about whether a given earlier organism is an ancestor, memes can have many "parents" and contributors in different ways: consider a film or story that gets translated into a different language and also weaves in a few local in-jokes. So presumably at least in sense some of those early memes (whether about fire, or words for things) are still around, or they have direct descendants. But do those direct descendants all ALSO descend from this sapience meme? Maybe! There's certainly a tendency for the sapience meme to penetrate most/all other memes since it dramatically changes how we relate to memeplexes (since it changes our sense of self and our sense of choice in relation to memes, as the whole "knowledge of good and evil" reflects).

But it seems to me that we need at least SOME answer to the question of what it means for a meme to be a descendant of another meme, if we're going to make this analogy tight. This is of course very close to the question that ruined the original Memetics field, which died when it couldn't precisely define the equivalent of a gene for memetics.

Oh! Maybe you don't mean that all *memes* are descendants of this foundational meme, just that all people/cultures alive currently have a meme that is some very obvious direct descendant. But also other memes as well. That makes a bit more sense and seems more obviously true. There's a question of whether that's the *last* meme that's spread to everybody, which seems much less obvious, although it could be the most significant in some sense. Makes an interesting analogy to some of the work me & Michael are doing¹ which we've described as being developing a conscious memetic operating system that we would expect to diffuse to everybody (remixed in the process ofc) due to being more fit... and this then gives a new way to articulate the design space that we're working in.

¹ for readers who are curious about this, see this interview we did with Andrew https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/malcolm-ocean-and-michael-smith-3 or this shorter vid introducing the project: https://youtu.be/NeN34rquMhY

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meika loofs samorzewski's avatar

Arh, you goose! dear old friend.

have to steal that reference meme

you'll need to take up the meme of close-clade hybridization on as well as a factor now in your cultural taphonomies especially with the other hominins not mentioned in the title

https://youtu.be/pbtHsR_i81s?si=D6i5HAn5K8AZqzTP

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