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Paras Adhikary's avatar

Please keep these going man. They’re always a great read

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meika loofs samorzewski's avatar

A Gday Andrew, from Tasmania

I think the time frame is way off (I think it is a slow grind in the paleolithic with a noticeable pay-off recently, I don’t think it is “I” arising however, more like “other-I” which magics why we should) but I like the story. It's Sunday and have more time, thanks for writing this.

My passion project on this theme started at https://www.academia.edu/40978261/Why_we_should_an_introduction_by_memoir_into_the_implications_of_the_Egalitarian_Revolution_of_the_Paleolithic_or_Anyone_for_cake

years later I started the blog here abouts at https://whyweshould.substack.com/

ⓐ also read thismorning c.f. https://www.razibkhan.com/p/the-longer-i-live-the-wronger-i-get

More thoughts/comments/notes as reading, I jump around a bit:

①"native dualism"

my position is that this is an outcome of the Janus dance, when it doubles-down on it's naive power -- even the yinyang symbol does this, (might be an outcome of bilateral symmetry...? or vice versa??) https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/the-janus-ratio

②"The impulse to make art and search for meaning was not always found in our species. …."

religion/art/performance/rites/routine/plays/staging/fashion/bodypaint/painting are an outcome of the (moral) worlding urge, or if recursively doubled-down it becmes a culture’s passion project as a the “world-building”’reality’(aside: we double-down a lot --- in some French philosophies (Deleuze) this is called intensifying or re-intensifying) this turns a routine into rite, the ritual into a doctrine, and a doctrine into dogma -- the medium of intensification is the social/political space created by the success of the routine in the first place) (if we do this internally we get identitarian politics -- from socially created identities -- unless one is autistic like me of course)

—thus your "Rather, it’s a tic of whatever environments humans have been living in over the last 50,000 years." is correct, the social landscape rather than the terrain mostly (In Australian Aboriginal culture (e.g. tjukurrpa) these are not separated out, they are the world,

③"Time gobbles up evidence. " we have to create a taphonomy of our social landscapes and strip back the intensifications (social ontologies, dogma, identities, build worlds) and see how they fossilise themselves: https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/divining-the-gap

④ "soul" https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/reading-the-relativistic-brain-how

⑤ oral history, millennia http://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-94-007-3934-5_9966-1

⑥ "My thesis is that women discovered “I” first"

(See also/ have you seen?) Ellen Dissanayake's stuff for an excellent frame on all this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Dissanayake More about special nurturing than feminine insight, in a negotiated multi-modal fitness landscape, raising empathically children into specialness and then breaking them with the reality principle without creating a psychopath/narcissists takes some doing... [[[[ much of the moral/worlding urge I go on about is geared to work policing non-empathic narcissists who break the cross-insurance of hunter-gatherer success paterns (Given Trump/Putin/Boris Johnson et al... we are currently not policing them very well) (multi-modal = where other animal species have one or two niches, humans exploit at least two and negotiate who does what, I suspect the crux you are pointing out has more to do with this being done more successfully allowing a quicker response time to change and so expansion into new geographic zones. Even before this doubles down into economies and stratified societies)

⑦ Epistemic status: me? about the same, I like to generate poetic rumination on the theme but...

⑧ I seemed to have missed Michael Corballis, will chase he is “certain” I suspect we are all wrong on these guesses, either way.

⑨ I’ve begun interrogating the I/we assumptions in ‘teh’ west at https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/games-in-the-hide-of-our-names (I’ll add here that ‘We’ is not prior to ‘I’).

⑩ “But these arguments are scattered across posts,” LOL

⑪ My how we load (double-down) on some pronouns and not other at times (why are we dicussing the plural you more)

______________________

⑫ What makes us human?

ⓐ stories need no accuracy because their primary power lies in organising, and negotiating that organising, those groups (of I’s or not-I or we-s or us-I) who do not even try to organise themselves are less likely to survive, this is why we have no organ for truth (maybe one for lies but that is another story) we just do stuff and feel we should, because there can be no iteration (routine or learning) with out starting the journey with a single (mist-)step.

Perhaps the I is a mistep.

⑬ Recursion is useful

yes

ⓐ “But Humans aren’t computers” again see https://whyweshould.substack.com/p/reading-the-relativistic-brain-how at least as a re-framer [ power of the first (mis-)step??] (I mention “I am in a strange loop” in introducing their book)

ⓑ Terrence Deacon is good on a non-Chomskyan non Steven-Pinker Language Acquisition Device (LAD) (black-box recursion). For what its worth I think this is the Janus dance of consciousness per se, so this power-up focussing on the “I” is great, but the “I” might be just an outcome of that doubling-down recursively (in a good way). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_Deacon

© I had a blog for a while riffing on the monomyth, using the Hans Christian Anderson story of Thumbelina as a contra-myth. The monomyth is just a hunter’s story, (there and back again, successfully connecting three vectors of movmeent, and retuning into balance) leaving out the other side of the paleolithic negotiating side, the gathering movement, which we see in Thumbelina as one damn WTF moment and circumstance after another.

Consciousness is a series of WTF moments that dance on the threshold…. — as I mentioned before

I’ve a side project on the seven sisters, excellent exhibition :

Neale, Margo and National Museum of Australia (Canberra). Songlines: Tracking the Seven Sisters : [Exhibition, Canberra, National Museum of Australia, 15 September 2017 - 25 February 2018 and Travelling, 2017.] ISBN 978-1-921953-29-3

This song line moves across Australia (the entire continent that is ) from West to East. Compare that to your Roman Empire maps at greatest extent. Across not just languages but language groups. Who needs a imperial government to generate a continental wide culture and negotiated world??

A nice coin too https://www.ramint.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020/Media_Release/2020-1-coloured-fine-silver-star-dreaming_the-seven-sisters-uncirculated-coin_rev.jpg

Weak EToC

See Dissanyake for another frame on this discussion.

I am beginning to repeat myself so I’ll lay off for now on the point by point responses.

_________final thoughts________

It might be, at your inflection point ~59-60K years ago, cultures could maintain and create better ‘I’s because they became better parents, and not that the ‘I’s first appeared fully formed like Athena from her father’s thigh.

I.E. what the primatologists and evolutionary anthropologists put forward (like de Waals). I think they are on the money. With Dissanyake on how it is done.

That we finally should on others, and in this way we can better police the non-empathic narcissists and pscyhopaths, and this lead to greater organisation capabilites, recursively, in organising the world by way of rasing better ‘I’s, a legacy that stratified societies have begun frittering away by raising structures that reward and double-down on promoting narcissism. (Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World)

Narcissists in a sense have no I, because they are the world, much more than just the center of it. They emotional toddlers for whom the reality principle (recognising there are other ‘I’s out there) has never been accessible (parental failure or biological impossibility --- e.g. psychopaths).

One can put it the other way too. Narcissists have no world, because they only have their I.

Being able to negotiated that I/world/I and world/I/World healthily is proabably more key than having as I per se.

The rest of us dance our consciousness like Janus on the threshld between inside me and outside me, between you and me, between us and them, between my body and the dirt, in a multi-modal range of movements (hunting/gathering/teching recursively) across a hyper-dimensional socially negotiated/constructed world united by the seven sisters above us. Between the I and the world we shouldily dream into place

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