y"So why are the Pleiades called the Seven Sisters, when only six stars can be seen with the eye? In fact, the number of stars you can see within the Pleiades cluster, using just your eye, varies depending on your own eyesight, local atmospheric transparency and light pollution levels. Some people simply see fainter stars than others. It’s possible that early skywatchers, whose skies were darker and clearer than our modern skies, more often saw more than six stars here. Even today, people with exceptional vision see seven, eight or more stars in the Pleiades with the unaided eye."
Good find, though in 1800 when these stories were recorded in Australia, it seems the advantages must apply to Aboriginals. And if memory serves they are part of the "seven sisters, one missing" group. Same applies to Greeks 2,000 years ago when they wrote this down. Not much light pollution then.
There are also about two dozen cultures all around the world where it'd documented that the Pleiades are women, and opposed to a constellation at Orion, which represents a man or men. So there are other details that light pollution can't address. (I include a map of that motif in this article: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/evidence-for-global-cultural-diffusion)
Re. "Eleusinian Mysteries, where snake venom was likely used as a hallucinogen"
Or maybe it was LSD. From wikipedia -
In The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries (1978), authored by Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann and Carl A. P. Ruck, it was proposed that the special potion "kykeon", a pivotal component of the ceremony, contained psychoactive ergoline alkaloids from the fungus Ergot (Claviceps spp.).
Yeah, the Mysteries lasted for over 1,000 years in Greece (and hailed from much earlier, I think). Seems like it was really a concoction and Ruck is indeed better known for the claim about it containing Ergot. I could only find one instance of him mentioning snake venom as an entheogen, compared to a whole book about LSD.
Do you think there’s any connection between the Caduceus and Asclepius’ Rod and Samudra Manthan (churning of the ocean)? Both seem to be related to serpents and rejuvenation/immortality
That's the whole conceit of the Snake Cult of Consciousness :) Particularly related to the Churning and the Rod, India and Greece have the best evidence for the use of snake venom as an entheogen, which could be mythologized as an elixir of immortality or the gods.
Oh how did I miss the footnote of the post I just read and replied to! Sorry for that but kudos for acknowledging it. Yes I'm Turkish, and actually around where the şahmeran myth originates (although such myths have different conflicting zones of origin). I found your substack via SSC, after a book review contest if I remember correctly, it was about the bicameral mind (I wouldn't become a reader instantly if it was any other piece, bicameral mind being the voice of gods in ancient times is such a great explanation). Your theory might be right or wrong but it sure is captivating and makes a lot of sense. I wonder what made the snake venom the entheogen of choice then but made it out of fashion later?
What regions are in the running for the origin? It's interesting to me that St George is the patron saint of many countries, and is known for fighting snakes in Cappadoccia. If you look at the genetics, about 9,000 years ago, Anatolian Farmers actually did spread over large parts of the world. It would be remarkable if their origin is preserved in Arthurian stories of rescuing fair maidens from dragons in Turkey.
As for snake venom as an entheogen, it actually did persist into antiquity. (Or was at least used ritually, hard to demonstrate a phylogeny.) Decent evidence it was part of the concoction at Eleusis. At least one guru in India still uses venom, mixed with milk. The Hopi Indians performed the snake dance until the 20th century. It involved carrying rattlesnakes in the dancer's mouth. They survived by preparing themselves with an antivenom.
I think the transition was as much away from ordeals and chemicals as it was from snake venom to mushrooms. Call it the Sam Harris arc. He took mushrooms and that let him know very different states were obtainable. But he didn't go back repeatedly, he got interested in meditation. There are a lot of reasons to prefer Kundalini yoga--or any of the other shamanic methods that move energy up the spine--to an entheogen.
And even within the world of entheogens, maybe mushrooms or toad venom just work better or are less risky. My reason to believe snakes were first is primarily mythological.
BTW, asked chatGPT where St. George is a patron saint:
Saint George is recognized as the patron saint in several countries around the world. Some of these countries include:
England - Saint George is the patron saint of England, symbolized by the St. George's Cross, a red cross on a white background, which is part of the Union Flag of the United Kingdom.
Georgia - The country's name in English is actually derived from Saint George, and his imagery appears prominently on the national flag.
Portugal - Saint George is the patron saint of Portugal and also of the country's Order of Saint George.
Catalonia (Spain) - While not a country, Catalonia recognizes Saint George (Sant Jordi in Catalan) as its patron saint, and his feast day is a significant cultural celebration in the region.
Ethiopia - Saint George is highly revered in Ethiopia, where he is the patron of the nation as well as the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.
Greece - While not the primary patron saint, Saint George is greatly honored in Greece, especially by the Hellenic Army.
Serbia - Saint George is one of the most important saints in the Serbian Orthodox Church and is the patron saint of the Serbian people.
Bulgaria - Saint George is also a patron saint of Bulgaria and is celebrated with a public holiday.
Russia - While Russia has other patron saints, Saint George is also highly venerated and appears on the coat of arms of Moscow.
I'm near Yilankale (means snake-castle), but other regions (Tarsus, Mardin) within Turkey also are in the running. Also, the word is Persian and some places in Iran would probably be in the running. The same story is also in the 1001 night tales, so Arabs are in it as well. In the following book https://opendata.uni-halle.de/handle/1981185920/36665 at pages 63-64 under Turkish tale type TTV57, 7 variants of the tale are listed. The book is in German but AI will take care of that :). Also if you manage to turn it into text you can just search for Schlang (snake) in it for other snake related myths. The author (Pertev Naili Boratav) is one of the best folk researches so it's legit.
In fact I don't know if you looked that way, but folk tale morphology would yield some more snake tales to you. Vladimir Propp would probably have something on it.
Thanks for the explanation about the switch from snake venom to other hallucinogens.
The dance along the artery
The circulation of the lymph
Are figured in the drift of stars
Ascend to summer in the tree
We move above the moving tree
In light upon the figured leaf
And hear upon the sodden floor
Below, the boarhound and the boar
Pursue their pattern as before
But reconciled among the stars.
Exactly what I was thinking about!
There seem to be an alternative explanation for why everyone were seeing seven and not six sisters: https://earthsky.org/space/myth-and-science-of-pleiades-star-cluster/
y"So why are the Pleiades called the Seven Sisters, when only six stars can be seen with the eye? In fact, the number of stars you can see within the Pleiades cluster, using just your eye, varies depending on your own eyesight, local atmospheric transparency and light pollution levels. Some people simply see fainter stars than others. It’s possible that early skywatchers, whose skies were darker and clearer than our modern skies, more often saw more than six stars here. Even today, people with exceptional vision see seven, eight or more stars in the Pleiades with the unaided eye."
Good find, though in 1800 when these stories were recorded in Australia, it seems the advantages must apply to Aboriginals. And if memory serves they are part of the "seven sisters, one missing" group. Same applies to Greeks 2,000 years ago when they wrote this down. Not much light pollution then.
There are also about two dozen cultures all around the world where it'd documented that the Pleiades are women, and opposed to a constellation at Orion, which represents a man or men. So there are other details that light pollution can't address. (I include a map of that motif in this article: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/evidence-for-global-cultural-diffusion)
Re. "Eleusinian Mysteries, where snake venom was likely used as a hallucinogen"
Or maybe it was LSD. From wikipedia -
In The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries (1978), authored by Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann and Carl A. P. Ruck, it was proposed that the special potion "kykeon", a pivotal component of the ceremony, contained psychoactive ergoline alkaloids from the fungus Ergot (Claviceps spp.).
Yeah, the Mysteries lasted for over 1,000 years in Greece (and hailed from much earlier, I think). Seems like it was really a concoction and Ruck is indeed better known for the claim about it containing Ergot. I could only find one instance of him mentioning snake venom as an entheogen, compared to a whole book about LSD.
Do you think there’s any connection between the Caduceus and Asclepius’ Rod and Samudra Manthan (churning of the ocean)? Both seem to be related to serpents and rejuvenation/immortality
That's the whole conceit of the Snake Cult of Consciousness :) Particularly related to the Churning and the Rod, India and Greece have the best evidence for the use of snake venom as an entheogen, which could be mythologized as an elixir of immortality or the gods.
I've only been following for around a year or maybe a couple of months, have you also checked out the Sahmeran myth?
In this very post! Footnote # 11: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/herakles-adam-and-krishna-were-initiated#footnote-11-141291390
Are you Turkish? I'm pleasantly surprised to have an outsized readership there.
Oh how did I miss the footnote of the post I just read and replied to! Sorry for that but kudos for acknowledging it. Yes I'm Turkish, and actually around where the şahmeran myth originates (although such myths have different conflicting zones of origin). I found your substack via SSC, after a book review contest if I remember correctly, it was about the bicameral mind (I wouldn't become a reader instantly if it was any other piece, bicameral mind being the voice of gods in ancient times is such a great explanation). Your theory might be right or wrong but it sure is captivating and makes a lot of sense. I wonder what made the snake venom the entheogen of choice then but made it out of fashion later?
What regions are in the running for the origin? It's interesting to me that St George is the patron saint of many countries, and is known for fighting snakes in Cappadoccia. If you look at the genetics, about 9,000 years ago, Anatolian Farmers actually did spread over large parts of the world. It would be remarkable if their origin is preserved in Arthurian stories of rescuing fair maidens from dragons in Turkey.
As for snake venom as an entheogen, it actually did persist into antiquity. (Or was at least used ritually, hard to demonstrate a phylogeny.) Decent evidence it was part of the concoction at Eleusis. At least one guru in India still uses venom, mixed with milk. The Hopi Indians performed the snake dance until the 20th century. It involved carrying rattlesnakes in the dancer's mouth. They survived by preparing themselves with an antivenom.
I think the transition was as much away from ordeals and chemicals as it was from snake venom to mushrooms. Call it the Sam Harris arc. He took mushrooms and that let him know very different states were obtainable. But he didn't go back repeatedly, he got interested in meditation. There are a lot of reasons to prefer Kundalini yoga--or any of the other shamanic methods that move energy up the spine--to an entheogen.
And even within the world of entheogens, maybe mushrooms or toad venom just work better or are less risky. My reason to believe snakes were first is primarily mythological.
BTW, asked chatGPT where St. George is a patron saint:
Saint George is recognized as the patron saint in several countries around the world. Some of these countries include:
England - Saint George is the patron saint of England, symbolized by the St. George's Cross, a red cross on a white background, which is part of the Union Flag of the United Kingdom.
Georgia - The country's name in English is actually derived from Saint George, and his imagery appears prominently on the national flag.
Portugal - Saint George is the patron saint of Portugal and also of the country's Order of Saint George.
Catalonia (Spain) - While not a country, Catalonia recognizes Saint George (Sant Jordi in Catalan) as its patron saint, and his feast day is a significant cultural celebration in the region.
Ethiopia - Saint George is highly revered in Ethiopia, where he is the patron of the nation as well as the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.
Greece - While not the primary patron saint, Saint George is greatly honored in Greece, especially by the Hellenic Army.
Serbia - Saint George is one of the most important saints in the Serbian Orthodox Church and is the patron saint of the Serbian people.
Bulgaria - Saint George is also a patron saint of Bulgaria and is celebrated with a public holiday.
Russia - While Russia has other patron saints, Saint George is also highly venerated and appears on the coat of arms of Moscow.
I'm near Yilankale (means snake-castle), but other regions (Tarsus, Mardin) within Turkey also are in the running. Also, the word is Persian and some places in Iran would probably be in the running. The same story is also in the 1001 night tales, so Arabs are in it as well. In the following book https://opendata.uni-halle.de/handle/1981185920/36665 at pages 63-64 under Turkish tale type TTV57, 7 variants of the tale are listed. The book is in German but AI will take care of that :). Also if you manage to turn it into text you can just search for Schlang (snake) in it for other snake related myths. The author (Pertev Naili Boratav) is one of the best folk researches so it's legit.
In fact I don't know if you looked that way, but folk tale morphology would yield some more snake tales to you. Vladimir Propp would probably have something on it.
Thanks for the explanation about the switch from snake venom to other hallucinogens.
Have you thought about writing about this? I'd be very interested in a write-up, especially from the Snake Cult angle
English is not my primary language so I'm not extremely confident about myself but maybe I can give it a go?