This relays a really interesting story. I’m actually interested in learning more about hallet. Because of my previous worldview aligning with Jung/nuemann/paglia/even Jayne’s, I sometimes wonder about meeting tribal peoples myself to observe what they are like, if they are truly so different, so immature in comparison to us moderns as especially Jung depicts them. But, I am also weak and feeble and do not wish to have any misadventures (God forbid lose a hand!). It is not aligned with my personal temperament lol
I think perhaps what is worth mentioning is that in ancient Christianity, the expulsion from the garden was not merely a “punishment” in the wrathful sense, as western Christian’s may understand this moment. God did not punish Adam and Eve out of wrath or justice but rather the consequence of sin was spiritual death. And indeed, this was mercy, because had they continued in the garden they would not have been able to turn away from their sin due to their immortality. So, rather than the pygmie story mirroring the story of Adam and Eve, it reverses it, where God is not wrathful and vindictive, but instead merciful and compassionate. Hence also—the women in the pgymie story also are not “kept” by man in the same way they are in classical Christianity. Instead they are to face a vindictive punishment due to error! This is the primary reversal of Christianity: the removal of divine retributive justice or vengeance.
The Prometheus myth tells a similar story: where the most high God is Zeus and due to a conflict with him, Prometheus is punished through humanity being sent into disarray—which Prometheus then chooses to disobey Zeus to save humanity through delivering fire. Once again, another story reversed by the Christian myth: while Zeus is vindictive and punitive, the Christian God (the father) gives his only son (Christ) who obeys his will perfectly in self giving love (kenosis) on the cross. Divine vengeance is subverted and revealed for what it is: human evil.
So I don’t fundamentally agree that they’re the same story. Instead, I follow Girard (who broke the spell “depth psychology” (idk what else to call it, particularly the lineage I mentioned earlier) had on me, and what I’ve relayed here closely follows his theory of how Christ inverts the pagan myths. It is also consistent with what classical Christianity teaches, though the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant churches have developed in ways foreign to classical Christianity, even to the Jewish understanding at the time just prior to the coming of Christ (the second temple Jews).
Interesting article though, I’ll check out some of others that you have linked! I’m always interested in learning more about tribal societies.
>I think perhaps what is worth mentioning is that in ancient Christianity, the expulsion from the garden was not merely a “punishment” in the wrathful sense, as western Christian’s may understand this moment.
I was raised Mormon, and they go hard on the Fall being a natural consequence that was All Part Of The Plan. (IMO they preserved this from early Christianity via various esoteric schools which Joseph Smith weaved together.) But i don't quite follow what you're saying about Pygmie's reversing (or not reversing) this. My read of their myth is that it's quite in line with a natural consequence. Once you see your participation in the mystique (or, experience bicameral breakdown), then 'god' withdraws.
I agree that Christianity reverses (or is an appropriate answer to), the Fall. The Old Testament really is a book without an ending. No good news. Goes a long way in explaining why Christianity 'won'. It actually does answer many open questions about life.
Have you ever talked about your conversion? It may be fun to do a podcast. I'm not a believer but I was once a Mormon missionary so I'm familiar with the conversion experience.
For another short read on the subject of primitive people, I suggest Don't Sleep There Are Snakes, which is even more extreme, and written by a Christian missionary who loses his faith because he encounters this people that are essentially living in Eden. IMO his worldview is completely bereft of how to make sense of them, because it's so difficult for a liberal academic to talk about primitiveness, and what could cause it. He doesn't come out and say the Piraha have no ego. But he wrote a follow-up book saying the self is culturally constructed and humans have been essentially human for 2 million years. He can't accept humans are special for precisely the reasons genesis says. My comment on a good summary of the book:
I'm curious about your defense of Jaynes' theory! If small scale hunter gathering groups regularly hear voices in adaptive contexts (as Jaynes' theory suggests), have you found reports of "first contact" with these groups that support that claim?
My experience reading surveys of these types of reports has included relatively little hearing of voices, but commonplace "magical thinking" in interpretation of dreams, omens, and ordeals (I'm mostly relying on a book called Primitive Mentality by Lévy-Bruhl). But have you found any reports that suggest a Jaynesian type of culture?
This must be your first time on the blog, welcome!
There are some scattered reports such as first-contact Australia in Darwin's Descent of Man, and modern conceptions of schizophrenia which is much more common in some cultures. I discuss those in a piece I wrote some time ago: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/consequences-of-conscience
This relays a really interesting story. I’m actually interested in learning more about hallet. Because of my previous worldview aligning with Jung/nuemann/paglia/even Jayne’s, I sometimes wonder about meeting tribal peoples myself to observe what they are like, if they are truly so different, so immature in comparison to us moderns as especially Jung depicts them. But, I am also weak and feeble and do not wish to have any misadventures (God forbid lose a hand!). It is not aligned with my personal temperament lol
I think perhaps what is worth mentioning is that in ancient Christianity, the expulsion from the garden was not merely a “punishment” in the wrathful sense, as western Christian’s may understand this moment. God did not punish Adam and Eve out of wrath or justice but rather the consequence of sin was spiritual death. And indeed, this was mercy, because had they continued in the garden they would not have been able to turn away from their sin due to their immortality. So, rather than the pygmie story mirroring the story of Adam and Eve, it reverses it, where God is not wrathful and vindictive, but instead merciful and compassionate. Hence also—the women in the pgymie story also are not “kept” by man in the same way they are in classical Christianity. Instead they are to face a vindictive punishment due to error! This is the primary reversal of Christianity: the removal of divine retributive justice or vengeance.
The Prometheus myth tells a similar story: where the most high God is Zeus and due to a conflict with him, Prometheus is punished through humanity being sent into disarray—which Prometheus then chooses to disobey Zeus to save humanity through delivering fire. Once again, another story reversed by the Christian myth: while Zeus is vindictive and punitive, the Christian God (the father) gives his only son (Christ) who obeys his will perfectly in self giving love (kenosis) on the cross. Divine vengeance is subverted and revealed for what it is: human evil.
So I don’t fundamentally agree that they’re the same story. Instead, I follow Girard (who broke the spell “depth psychology” (idk what else to call it, particularly the lineage I mentioned earlier) had on me, and what I’ve relayed here closely follows his theory of how Christ inverts the pagan myths. It is also consistent with what classical Christianity teaches, though the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant churches have developed in ways foreign to classical Christianity, even to the Jewish understanding at the time just prior to the coming of Christ (the second temple Jews).
Interesting article though, I’ll check out some of others that you have linked! I’m always interested in learning more about tribal societies.
>I think perhaps what is worth mentioning is that in ancient Christianity, the expulsion from the garden was not merely a “punishment” in the wrathful sense, as western Christian’s may understand this moment.
I was raised Mormon, and they go hard on the Fall being a natural consequence that was All Part Of The Plan. (IMO they preserved this from early Christianity via various esoteric schools which Joseph Smith weaved together.) But i don't quite follow what you're saying about Pygmie's reversing (or not reversing) this. My read of their myth is that it's quite in line with a natural consequence. Once you see your participation in the mystique (or, experience bicameral breakdown), then 'god' withdraws.
I agree that Christianity reverses (or is an appropriate answer to), the Fall. The Old Testament really is a book without an ending. No good news. Goes a long way in explaining why Christianity 'won'. It actually does answer many open questions about life.
Have you ever talked about your conversion? It may be fun to do a podcast. I'm not a believer but I was once a Mormon missionary so I'm familiar with the conversion experience.
For another short read on the subject of primitive people, I suggest Don't Sleep There Are Snakes, which is even more extreme, and written by a Christian missionary who loses his faith because he encounters this people that are essentially living in Eden. IMO his worldview is completely bereft of how to make sense of them, because it's so difficult for a liberal academic to talk about primitiveness, and what could cause it. He doesn't come out and say the Piraha have no ego. But he wrote a follow-up book saying the self is culturally constructed and humans have been essentially human for 2 million years. He can't accept humans are special for precisely the reasons genesis says. My comment on a good summary of the book:
https://open.substack.com/pub/kvetch/p/dont-sleep-there-are-snakes?utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=59821833
I'm curious about your defense of Jaynes' theory! If small scale hunter gathering groups regularly hear voices in adaptive contexts (as Jaynes' theory suggests), have you found reports of "first contact" with these groups that support that claim?
My experience reading surveys of these types of reports has included relatively little hearing of voices, but commonplace "magical thinking" in interpretation of dreams, omens, and ordeals (I'm mostly relying on a book called Primitive Mentality by Lévy-Bruhl). But have you found any reports that suggest a Jaynesian type of culture?
This must be your first time on the blog, welcome!
There are some scattered reports such as first-contact Australia in Darwin's Descent of Man, and modern conceptions of schizophrenia which is much more common in some cultures. I discuss those in a piece I wrote some time ago: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/consequences-of-conscience
But I think that Jaynes gets the timeline wrong and underestimates the importance of genes. I go into depth how I think his theory could work here: https://www.vectorsofmind.com/p/eve-theory-of-consciousness-v3